Artisan

Dervish:
это Вы Киев считаете открытым полем? Там вокруг леса опять же.

Dervish:
там было 2 армии. Не 1 пехотный полк, а 2 армии. не нашлось достаточно танков и ПТО?

Dervish:
а почему их было недостаточно? за 5 дней истощились? на своей территории? имея мощную базу в Киеве?

Dervish:
На расстоянии тысячи километров от своих баз, со слабо охраняемыми флангами, при условии полной нехватки ресурсов, о которой писали тогда в донесениях и потом в мемуарах? Паулюс останавливался на своем пути два раза - нехватало горючего.

Dervish:
только умирали тысячами от голода и холода почему то.

Lvbnhbq:
Не за спокойствие и стабильность, а чтобы бабло выбивать войска вводили.

Lvbnhbq:
Можно подробнее? А то все общие слова-штампы до сих пор.

Lvbnhbq:
Чтобы добить еще сильнее, как в 45 поделив на ГДР и ФРГ – нужны были силенки. А у Франции и Англии таких силенок держать оккупированными несколько десятков миллионов человек не было. А если б были… не сомневаюсь – они бы это сделали

Lvbnhbq:
Вильсон предложил мирный план (14 пунктов Вильсона ) по которому и было выполнено прекращение огня. А потом и его и немцев «кинули», выкатив совсем другие требования.

Lvbnhbq:
Только за полгода зимы 43-44 и только на Берлин было вывалено взрывчатки в 25 раз больше, чем все ФАУ вместе взятые донесли до Англии.

Dervish:
ну это как то сомнительно звучит - типа открытое поле и вдруг из за угла выезжает танк? почему на 3-5-7 день после окружения армии Буденного были без снабжения, а истощенная длительным походом и боями армия Паулюса была со снабжением достаточным чтобы продержаться 2 месяца? голодали, умирали от голода и холода, но держались. поля вблизи Сталинграда были, по своей "полистости", думаю не хуже Киевских. и готовые позиции - это какие? холмик в степи близ Сталинграда?

Dervish:
Паулюс держался более 2 месяцев, зимой на чужой земле. а тут - несколько дней не могли продержаться что ли? 660 000 - это немногим менее, по моему, чем вся группа армий "Центр". то есть, в круге было 660000, а круг был сформирован ну пусть миллионом (реально - меньше) немцев. почему не прорвались?

Dervish:
Artisan, не, это я знаю) но "в окружении воевать уже нечем" - это про Паулюса можно сказать. А наши _по моему_ под Киевом сдавались как только так и сразу) Приказ "ни шагу назад" _по моему_ был причиной не всех случаев. Что еще? На общем уровне я знаю, что неорганизованность и раздолбайство, но хочется конкретнее.

Dervish:
А есть ли у кого то ссылки на информацию о том, почему наши войска так доблестно и блестяще попадали в "котлы" и как происходило принятие решения о сдаче? то есть не две строчки "в ходе наступления финнов 23-я армия попала в окружение" а более детальный разбор?

United States President Woodrow Wilson listed the Fourteen Points in a speech that he delivered to the United States Congress on January 8, 1918.

Fourteen Points Speech

Gentlemen of the Congress ...

It will be our best wish and purpose that the processes of peace, when they are begun, shall be absolutely open and that they shall involve and permit henceforth no secret understandings of any kind. The day of conquest and aggrandizement is gone by; so is also the day of secret covenants entered into in the interest of particular governments and likely at some unlooked-for moment to upset the peace of the world. It is this happy fact, now clear to the view of every public man whose thoughts do not still linger in an age that is dead and gone, which makes it possible for every nation whose purposes are consistent with justice and the peace of the world to avow now or at any other time the objects it has in view.

We entered this war because violations of right had occurred which touched us to the quick and made the life of our own people impossible unless they were corrected and the world secured once for all against their recurrence. What we demand in this war, therefore, is nothing peculiar to ourselves. It is that the world be made fit and safe to live in; and particularly that it be made safe for every peace-loving nation which, like our own, wishes to live its own life, determine its own institutions, be assured of justice and fair dealing by the other peoples of the world as against force and selfish aggression. All the peoples of the world are in effect partners in this interest, and for our own part we see very clearly that unless justice be done to others it will not be done to us. The program of the world's peace, therefore, is our program; and that program, the only possible program, as we see it, is this:

I. Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.

II. Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants.

III. The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of an equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.

IV. Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety.

V. A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined.

VI. The evacuation of all Russian territory and such a settlement of all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free nations under institutions of her own choosing; and, more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that she may need and may herself desire. The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to come will be the acid test of their good will, of their comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy.

VII. Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.

VIII. All French territory should be freed and the invaded portions restored, and the wrong done to France by Prussia in 1871 in the matter of Alsace-Lorraine, which has unsettled the peace of the world for nearly fifty years, should be righted, in order that peace may once more be made secure in the interest of all.

IX. A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality.

X. The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity of autonomous development.

XI. Romania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored; Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guarantees of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered into.

XII. The Turkish portions of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of an autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.

XIII. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.

XIV. A general association of nations must be formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.

In regard to these essential rectifications of wrong and assertions of right we feel ourselves to be intimate partners of all the governments and peoples associated together against the Imperialists. We cannot be separated in interest or divided in purpose. We stand together until the end.

For such arrangements and covenants we are willing to fight and to continue to fight until they are achieved; but only because we wish the right to prevail and desire a just and stable peace such as can be secured only by removing the chief provocations to war, which this program does not remove. We have no jealousy of German greatness, and there is nothing in this program that impairs it. We grudge her no achievement or distinction of learning or of pacific enterprise such as have made her record very bright and very enviable. We do not wish to injure her or to block in any way her legitimate influence or power. We do not wish to fight her either with arms or with hostile arrangements of trade if she is willing to associate herself with us and the other peace-loving nations of the world in covenants of justice and law and fair dealing. We wish her only to accept a place of equality among the peoples of the world, -- the new world in which we now live, -- instead of a place of mastery.

Neither do we presume to suggest to her any alteration or modification of her institutions. But it is necessary, we must frankly say, and necessary as a preliminary to any intelligent dealings with her on our part, that we should know whom her spokesmen speak for when they speak to us, whether for the Reichstag majority or for the military party and the men whose creed is imperial domination.

We have spoken now, surely, in terms too concrete to admit of any further doubt or question. An evident principle runs through the whole program I have outlined. It is the principle of justice to all peoples and nationalities, and their right to live on equal terms of liberty and safety with one another, whether they be strong or weak. Unless this principle be made its foundation no part of the structure of international justice can stand. The people of the United States could act upon no other principle; and to the vindication of this principle they are ready to devote their lives, their honor, and everything that they possess. The moral climax of this the culminating and final war for human liberty has come, and they are ready to put their own strength, their own highest purpose, their own integrity and devotion to the test.

Ярик:
Что за бред? 😕

Всего по Великобритании было выпущено 9017 Фау-1, из них систему ПРО прорвали 3262 ракеты, это 36,1%. Из 3262 ракет только 2340 попали в Лондон, это 25,9%. По английским данным от них погибло 5649 человек, ранено 16196 человек, разрушено 23000 и повреждено 750000 зданий (как-то неправдопадобно). Для защиты от ракет англичане развернули три линии обороны. Было задействовано 2800 зенитных орудий, 2000 аэростатов заграждения, 11 истребительных эскадр. Кроме того ВВС произвели 15000 самолётовылетов и сбросили 82348 т бомб на ракетные объекты Германии, что обошлось Великобритании в 47600000 английских фунтов. А вот все, абсолютно все, расходы Германии на свои ракетные программы составили всего 25% от этой суммы и комментарии здесь излишни!